2010 Fusion Sport 3.5L AWD

[wptski]

Hi Bill. At this point your reply is simply argumentative for no apparent reason. You are no longer discussing the original subject, and do not even acknowledge that you completely misunderstood/misrepresented (although accidentally, I am sure) what I originally stated in my reply to 6ft5Import.

 

The information I provided is correct and is general knowledge to anyone familiar with the Warranty and service system.

 

There is no point to this discussion, so let's just move on.

 

No hard feelings and good luck. :D

I don't see where I misunderstood your posts. You have a view of "how" Ford's warranty program is supposed to work which sounds like your a Ford employee in protective mode. I'm trying, although I made some mistakes because I can't remember each individual's problems exactly, a instance of how it really works which you say is a made up story. Look up the VIN and it'll tell you that it's a true story!

[bbf2530]

I don't see where I misunderstood your posts. You have a view of "how" Ford's warranty program is supposed to work which sounds like your a Ford employee in protective mode. I'm trying, although I made some mistakes because I can't remember each individual's problems exactly, a instance of how it really works which you say is a made up story. Look up the VIN and it'll tell you that it's a true story!

 

Hi Bill. Just as an aside, since you can not seem to remember where you "misunderstood" my posts, let me refresh your memory (and this is only one quick example):

 

So the dealer was doing all the repeated work which was covered by a TSB without being paid by Ford? Yeah, sure!!...

 

As previously stated when I corrected that erroneous assertion by you, I actually stated the complete opposite and clearly explained how and why the Warranty System works.

 

I have to wonder about you just stated! .......... This sure doesn't sound like Ford is watching what their dealers are doing at all!!

 

If Ford knows "exactly" what's going on, why are they paying a dealer to do the same repair job over and over again? .................................

 

............................................... I have a hunch that you can look up VIN: 1fmcu9dg7aka84610 yourself. Its history speaks for itself!

 

......................................... Look up the VIN and it'll tell you that it's a true story!

 

As you can see, in the first two posts of yours quoted above, you question whether Ford knows what the Dealers are doing (what this entire debate started over). In the last two, you tell me to pull up the Warranty history by VIN to prove you are right. And yet you do not see the contradiction in that request. So you seem to think I can pull up the Warranty and service history, but Ford does not know the information. Please re-think that theory.

 

Encapsulated: Yes, as posted above, you have misunderstood the information I have provided. So we can lay that debate to rest.

And Ford knows every nut, bolt and screw that is turned for Warranty work, since the Dealer notifies Ford of every one of those nuts, bolts and screws it has to turn, then Ford has to pay the Dealer to turn every one of those nuts. bolts and screws. That is why all Warranty work can be verified in the Ford database, by VIN ( ). Even a blind man can see that (as even you asked me to verify work done to an Escape by VIN). So we can now lay to rest the "Ford doesn't know what is going on" debate.

 

And yes, the Dealer gets paid by Ford to perform the same service, even "eight times" if the same part fails due to a defect in material or manufacturing while under covered Warranty. So we can lay that debate to rest.

 

You feel Dealers and Ford should do more to make you, me and everyone else happy? Is that what this is all about? Well, I wish it was an ideal world and they could/would too. But we don't live in an ideal world. Heck, if it was an ideal world, I would not have to be debating how the Warranty and service systems work someone who obviously is not familiar with how the Warranty and service system works (from here on, don't be sarcastic with me and I will not be sarcastic with you).

 

Do I work for Ford or do I not? I do not discuss my life or profession with Internet strangers. So your attempt at sarcasm is a failure. Read again (since you have once again misunderstood information). Nothing I have stated is protective of Ford, their Dealerships, or excuses bad service.

 

No hard feelings, but skipping the pointless sarcasm would be polite. To this point I had been polite to you, but you are dancing on the line of being impolite with the sarcasm (("Yeah, sure"...."sorry that I question your expert knowledge"..."Darn them making up a story like that"..."protective mode"... etc.). Plus, it is getting in the way of you "trying" to learn the truth.

 

Hopefully we have now touched on just about all the concerns you have and can move on.

 

The information I have provided is correct and those who are interested can choose who is providing correct and verifiable information.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited April 18, 2010 by bbf2530

[wptski]

bbf2530:

 

You win, I give up!

[bbf2530]

bbf2530:

 

You win, I give up!

 

Hi Bill. :D Just so you understand, I am only trying to provide correct information to help people. It is not a matter of "winning".

 

So no hard feelings, let's just move on to helping others. :grouphug:

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

[wptski]

Hi Bill. :D Just so you understand, I am only trying to provide correct information to help people. It is not a matter of "winning".

 

So no hard feelings, let's just move on to helping others. :grouphug:

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Whatever...

[drolds1]

UPDATE

 

This past Friday my SA called to say that they had heard from Ford and they'd like me to bring the car back, as they had "something else" they'd like to try. He had no details on what they were planning but assured me that it would only take one day.

 

So, they worked on the car Tuesday. The rumble persists. The SA was vague as to what the tech had done. First he said something about the rear differential, then he mentioned the PTU. I didn't get a chance to speak to the tech this time so I don't know specifics.

 

The FSE is in Dearborn right now. They will continue to work on it. I was assured that they will come up with a fix. I await the solution. Stay tuned.

Edited May 5, 2010 by drolds1

[Joe_Fusion]

So I know this topic is a couple months old, but I was wondering if anyone had any luck with finding out the cause of this issue? I'm still having this. Narrowing it down more, it looks like it happens at 1500 RPMs under light acceleration (more related to RPMs then to MPH).

[drolds1]

So I know this topic is a couple months old, but I was wondering if anyone had any luck with finding out the cause of this issue? I'm still having this. Narrowing it down more, it looks like it happens at 1500 RPMs under light acceleration (more related to RPMs then to MPH).

 

When it occurs was determined months ago. I you've read my posts then you know that the Ford FSE and the dealer tech determined that the cause is the TCC locking at the same time the rear differential is unlocking, thus causing the TCC to pulse. Moreover, I stated that Ford engineers were trying to come up with a fix, as we speak.

 

Have you brought the car into your dealer for this issue?

[wptski]

When it occurs was determined months ago. I you've read my posts then you know that the Ford FSE and the dealer tech determined that the cause is the TCC locking at the same time the rear differential is unlocking, thus causing the TCC to pulse. Moreover, I stated that Ford engineers were trying to come up with a fix, as we speak.

 

Have you brought the car into your dealer for this issue?

I don't believe that there's such a thing as a locking rear differential on a Fusion AWD, whoops, A4WD. Having traction control with a locking differential is a problem.

[drolds1]

I don't believe that there's such a thing as a locking rear differential on a Fusion AWD, whoops, A4WD. Having traction control with a locking differential is a problem.

 

Nobody implied that it has a locking differential. That's the term that was used by the certified master transmission tech by which he meant that the rear differential is disengaging.

 

BTW, traction control and a locking (limited slip) differential are standard equipment on all 2011 Mustangs. So why is this a problem?

[wptski]

Nobody implied that it has a locking differential. That's the term that was used by the certified master transmission tech by which he meant that the rear differential is disengaging.

 

BTW, traction control and a locking (limited slip) differential are standard equipment on all 2011 Mustangs. So why is this a problem?

Well, you used the phrase, unlocking differential. I assume now that you meant when the rear ATC unit isn't being powered? Since the TCC is normally engaged at a constant speed and the 4WD/AWD is OFF when you reach a constant speed, I'm confused about the connection!

 

I should have said the traction control and a locking rear differential are a bit trickier to get to work together. The Mustang isn't FWD and it might not be possible to have a rear locking differential and traction control on a FWD with A4WD.

 

If you want to try a test, pull the fuse on the 4WD/AWD module and see if the problem stops. This will turn ON your dash "wrench" icon but will go OFF when the fuse is replaced.

Edited May 6, 2010 by wptski

[drolds1]

Well, you used the phrase, unlocking differential. I assume now that you meant when the rear ATC unit isn't being powered? Since the TCC is normally engaged at a constant speed and the 4WD/AWD is OFF when you reach a constant speed, I'm confused about the connection!

 

I should have said the traction control and a locking rear differential are a bit trickier to get to work together. The Mustang isn't FWD and it might not be possible to have a rear locking differential and traction control on a FWD with A4WD.

 

If you want to try a test, pull the fuse on the 4WD/AWD module and see if the problem stops. This will turn ON your dash "wrench" icon but will go OFF when the fuse is replaced.

 

I'm sorry if the semantics caused confusion. I thought it was clear within the context of the conversation.

 

Yes, the TCC is engaged at a constant speed, but we're talking an event that occurs only under gentle to moderate acceleration here when the TCC wouldn't yet be engaged. I can duplicate the rumble at 50mph and 1500rpm as well. The whole thing lasts maybe half a second, if that much. Once again, as explained to me, at this specific combination of road speed and engine rpm, the TCC is engaging at the same time that the the rear differential/AWD system is disengaging.

 

They've now decided that the problem can only be addressed by changing the coding. They've replaced the torque converter, the valve body, the TCU and the rear differential; everything except the transaxle itself.

 

WRT pulling fuses, the tech already tweaked the system and was able to eliminate the rumble. He didn't tell me this. I found out through my son, who works at the dealership. Obviously, whatever he did is not an approved fix. Any changes may have to be approved by the EPA.

 

Incidentally, in the process of doing all this work they manged to eliminate the Grade Assist function that my car had. Before, moving the gear selector to "M" (SST) would cause the trans to shift out of overdrive and a little yellow icon of a car going downhill would illuminate in the instrument cluster. Now the light doesn't come on, it just shows what gear it's in and doesn't downshift automatically. From looking at the online 3rd edition of the owner's guide, they apparently deleted that function from Job 3 cars for reasons only known to them. Mine is a Job 2 car but they installed the latest version of the TCU. I actually did use that feature. It's not really a big deal. I can downshift manually if I need to, but they ordered the correct TCU for my car and they can install it when I return. They offered to hold the car another day and do the job, but I wanted my car back. It just wasn't important enough, IMO.

[wptski]

I'm sorry if the semantics caused confusion. I thought it was clear within the context of the conversation.

 

Yes, the TCC is engaged at a constant speed, but we're talking an event that occurs only under gentle to moderate acceleration here when the TCC wouldn't yet be engaged. I can duplicate the rumble at 50mph and 1500rpm as well. The whole thing lasts maybe half a second, if that much. Once again, as explained to me, at this specific combination of road speed and engine rpm, the TCC is engaging at the same time that the the rear differential/AWD system is disengaging.

 

They've now decided that the problem can only be addressed by changing the coding. They've replaced the torque converter, the valve body, the TCU and the rear differential; everything except the transaxle itself.

 

WRT pulling fuses, the tech already tweaked the system and was able to eliminate the rumble. He didn't tell me this. I found out through my son, who works at the dealership. Obviously, whatever he did is not an approved fix. Any changes may have to be approved by the EPA.

 

Incidentally, in the process of doing all this work they manged to eliminate the Grade Assist function that my car had. Before, moving the gear selector to "M" (SST) would cause the trans to shift out of overdrive and a little yellow icon of a car going downhill would illuminate in the instrument cluster. Now the light doesn't come on, it just shows what gear it's in and doesn't downshift automatically. From looking at the online 3rd edition of the owner's guide, they apparently deleted that function from Job 3 cars for reasons only known to them. Mine is a Job 2 car but they installed the latest version of the TCU. I actually did use that feature. It's not really a big deal. I can downshift manually if I need to, but they ordered the correct TCU for my car and they can install it when I return. They offered to hold the car another day and do the job, but I wanted my car back. It just wasn't important enough, IMO.

Gentle to moderate acceleration won't send torque to the rear wheels and moreso at 50MPH.

[drolds1]

Gentle to moderate acceleration won't send torque to the rear wheels and moreso at 50MPH.

 

Well, then I'll give you the number of the certified master trans tech at my dealership and you can tell him he's wrong about how this car operates.

 

If you have a link to a description of the operation of the AWD systems in these cars, I'd appreciate seeing it.

Edited May 6, 2010 by drolds1

[wptski]

Well, then I'll give you the number of the certified master trans tech at my dealership and you can tell him he's wrong about how this car operates.

 

If you have a link to a description of the operation of the AWD systems in these cars, I'd appreciate seeing it.

Here's a link which includes a quotes from a interview with a Ford rep; My link

 

I also question the text included in the link above that states increased throttle results in increased rear wheel torque. I can put my '09 FE right to the floor and my ScanGuage-II never shows more than 30-35%. Light to moderate throttle results in >20%. Why can't I get close to 50%???

 

I have access to all Ford Workshop Manuals and description of operation for a Escape 4WD is word for word the same as a Ford Fusion AWD. The troubleshooting section is exactly the same. The systems are the same.

 

Here's a link to a thread I started in a Ford Escape Hybrid Forum that started me on a search for answers: My link.

 

I asked my dealership's questions about 4WD operation that they could answer and they even contacted their Service Hotline. They were told that the information I requested wasn't available!!

 

I grabbed the following from the Ford Fusion site, I highlighted the interesting part! Seems somebody is still confused on their AWD operation! I guess they consider having traction control makes it real AWD??

 

The V6-powered Fusion with class-exclusive* All-Wheel Drive (AWD) improves traction and handling on any surface where wheel slip can occur, such as ice, snow, mud, gravel or even dry pavement. It constantly monitors driving conditions and distributes engine torque to the wheels with the most traction. So if the front wheels are experiencing poor traction, AWD will automatically transfer more torque to the rear wheels or the wheels having the most traction. At highway speed, the AWD system automatically deactivates to help conserve fuel but is able to reactivate if wheel slip is anticipated or detected.

Edited May 7, 2010 by wptski

[drolds1]

Here's a link which includes a quotes from a interview with a Ford rep; My link

 

I also question the text included in the link above that states increased throttle results in increased rear wheel torque. I can put my '09 FE right to the floor and my ScanGuage-II never shows more than 30-35%. Light to moderate throttle results in >20%. Why can't I get close to 50%???

 

I have access to all Ford Workshop Manuals and description of operation for a Escape 4WD is word for word the same as a Ford Fusion AWD. The troubleshooting section is exactly the same. The systems are the same.

 

Here's a link to a thread I started in a Ford Escape Hybrid Forum that started me on a search for answers: My link.

 

I asked my dealership's questions about 4WD operation that they could answer and they even contacted their Service Hotline. They were told that the information I requested wasn't available!!

 

I grabbed the following from the Ford Fusion site, I highlighted the interesting part! Seems somebody is still confused on their AWD operation! I guess they consider having traction control makes it real AWD??

 

The V6-powered Fusion with class-exclusive* All-Wheel Drive (AWD) improves traction and handling on any surface where wheel slip can occur, such as ice, snow, mud, gravel or even dry pavement. It constantly monitors driving conditions and distributes engine torque to the wheels with the most traction. So if the front wheels are experiencing poor traction, AWD will automatically transfer more torque to the rear wheels or the wheels having the most traction. At highway speed, the AWD system automatically deactivates to help conserve fuel but is able to reactivate if wheel slip is anticipated or detected.

 

 

Thanks for those links but I'd read those several times even before I got the car when I was trying to gain more knowledge of the subject. They really don't address our current discussion. They're more oriented to a basic explanation of how the system reacts to less than ideal traction conditions. We're talking about acceleration on a dry road under ideal conditions, i.e., no wheel slip.

At highway speed, the AWD system automatically deactivates to help conserve fuel but is able to reactivate if wheel slip is anticipated or detected.

Doesn't this indicate that torque is going to all 4 wheels until a steady (unspecified) speed is reached?

 

Moreover, in your post of 2/23/10, you stated

Under normal driving conditions "some" torque is always sent to the rear wheels, if slippage is detected, increased torque is sent to the rear. Every time you leave from a dead stop, you have rear wheel torque which slowly decreases till you reach a constant speed. Even on dry hard pavement, if you nail it, rear wheel torque will increase.

 

In appears to me that in your own words you've confirmed what the dealer tech told me; there is torque to rear wheels when leaving from a dead stop that slowly decreases as you speed up. Taking that to the next step, what we've agreed was the AWD "disengaging" at 40 mph/1500rpm the point that you described as wheel torque decreasing at a constant speed. Once again, this combination of the AWD deactivating combined with TCC lockup is causing what sounds to me like a brief and rapid TCC lock/unlock event resulting in the brief rumble heard and felt in the car. Do you agree with this assessment?

[wptski]

Thanks for those links but I'd read those several times even before I got the car when I was trying to gain more knowledge of the subject. They really don't address our current discussion. They're more oriented to a basic explanation of how the system reacts to less than ideal traction conditions. We're talking about acceleration on a dry road under ideal conditions, i.e., no wheel slip. Doesn't this indicate that torque is going to all 4 wheels until a steady (unspecified) speed is reached?

 

Moreover, in your post of 2/23/10, you stated

 

In appears to me that in your own words you've confirmed what the dealer tech told me; there is torque to rear wheels when leaving from a dead stop that slowly decreases as you speed up. Taking that to the next step, what we've agreed was the AWD "disengaging" at 40 mph/1500rpm the point that you described as wheel torque decreasing at a constant speed. Once again, this combination of the AWD deactivating combined with TCC lockup is causing what sounds to me like a brief and rapid TCC lock/unlock event resulting in the brief rumble heard and felt in the car. Do you agree with this assessment?

Nothing really expalns in detail how the system works not even the Workshop Manuals. Like the a Service Manager phrased it, " If it ain't in the book, I guess they don't want us to know!". They don't go into details maybe because the rearend ATC unit isn't servicable other than seals. Electrically, if it goes bad, they replace the whole unit.

 

The constant speed at which time rear wheel torque stops can be any speed as it probably momitors the throttle. That could be 25MPH, 30MPH or whatever. One pinpoint test for function is to monitor the 4WD/AWD PID, make a full locked turn at <5MPH and if it's >20%, nothing is wrong. Another test is to command 100% rear wheel torque and if it's working correctly, the vehicle will resist turning and/or wheels will bind. The question I asked of my dealer that they couldn't answer was, what's normal rearwheel torque from a dead stop driving straight?

 

My main complaint about the system is that it's advertised as a "on-demand" or Intelligent 4WD/AWD system that sends rear wheel torque only when needed, so why does it send rearwheel torque every time you leave from a dead stop? It doesn't send rearwheel torque and/or side to side for sure if you were driving through a "S" curve, so there's no increase handling ability.

 

 

I'm a retired Ford maintanence employee and if I was still working I "might" have been able through to somebody at Ford to get details on the system.

[akirby]

My main complaint about the system is that it's advertised as a "on-demand" or Intelligent 4WD/AWD system that sends rear wheel torque only when needed, so why does it send rearwheel torque every time you leave from a dead stop? It doesn't send rearwheel torque and/or side to side for sure if you were driving through a "S" curve, so there's no increase handling ability.

 

 

I'm a retired Ford maintanence employee and if I was still working I "might" have been able through to somebody at Ford to get details on the system.

 

But it's not advertised as just an "on demand" system. Ford went out of its way to say that the system not only reacts to slippage but anticipates potential slippage and sends torque to the rear before it slips. It uses throttle position and steering angle to do this, so if you go WOT from a dead stop it should send torque to the rear as well as when accelerating through a curve which does help with handling. This was specifically called out in all the Ford press releases.

 

I think Artie is correct - the diff is engaged even under moderate acceleration up to a point at which it would totally disengage.

 

Also - it's likely the programming controlling this is different between the Escape and Fusion/MKZ.

Edited May 7, 2010 by akirby

[drolds1]

But it's not advertised as just an "on demand" system. Ford went out of its way to say that the system not only reacts to slippage but anticipates potential slippage and sends torque to the rear before it slips. It uses throttle position and steering angle to do this, so if you go WOT from a dead stop it should send torque to the rear as well as when accelerating through a curve which does help with handling. This was specifically called out in all the Ford press releases.

 

I think Artie is correct - the diff is engaged even under moderate acceleration up to a point at which it would totally disengage.

 

Also - it's likely the programming controlling this is different between the Escape and Fusion/MKZ.

 

From the Ford Media site

The systems also help balance and improve driving dynamics by sending torque to the secondary axle when it’s most appropriate for handling.

[wptski]

But it's not advertised as just an "on demand" system. Ford went out of its way to say that the system not only reacts to slippage but anticipates potential slippage and sends torque to the rear before it slips. It uses throttle position and steering angle to do this, so if you go WOT from a dead stop it should send torque to the rear as well as when accelerating through a curve which does help with handling. This was specifically called out in all the Ford press releases.

 

I think Artie is correct - the diff is engaged even under moderate acceleration up to a point at which it would totally disengage.

 

Also - it's likely the programming controlling this is different between the Escape and Fusion/MKZ.

Okay, not just as a "On Demand". I've never seen the system anticipate slippage and send rearwheel torque, not that it has happened. I've driven on snow and tried to accelerate to force a increase torque but seen no increase. If you accelerate at any speed, you'll see increased rearwheel torque no matter if it's a "S" curve or not.

 

As far as Press Releases go. I forget how many different Ford vehicles claim to use fuel cutoff on decell programing for the first time. It's on the Ford Escape, it goes OPEN LOOP STATUS while coasting above a certain speeds. Just look at what I posted above from the Ford Fusion site above. It says torque to a single wheel and that's just plain wrong!!

 

Sure, programing may be different for different vehicles but basic operation is the same.

[akirby]

I've driven on snow and tried to accelerate to force a increase torque but seen no increase. If you accelerate at any speed, you'll see increased rearwheel torque no matter if it's a "S" curve or not.

 

You just contradicted yourself. The system may work the same but the software controls when and how much torque to transfer so it's entirely possible that the Escape and Fusion/MKZ systems work differently.

[wptski]

You just contradicted yourself. The system may work the same but the software controls when and how much torque to transfer so it's entirely possible that the Escape and Fusion/MKZ systems work differently.

Not really! The amount of rearwheel torque sent may be different but the fact that it still sends it everytime you leave from a stop on dry hard pavement. The Ford Workshop Manual describes the exact same theory of operation for both platforms and the functional tests are exactly the same also.

Edited May 7, 2010 by wptski

[juice]

oh well...I was hoping someone would be able to peg something to work off of. anyhow, I dont think it will disappear by itself. though sometimes will be louder and sometimes more muted. very annoying and wish it can be remedied so i can enjoy the car that i am paying good money for.

 

I had the same problem with 2010 I4 & 3.0. ( yes had both ) My post is on the general drivetrain discussion. I have an appointment tomorrow at the dealer. My research led me to a bad torque converter / stator. Also, does your car have a drag feel to it in 5th gear?? Both mine did too, a sign of a bad torque converter / stator!!

[drolds1]

I had the same problem with 2010 I4 & 3.0. ( yes had both ) My post is on the general drivetrain discussion. I have an appointment tomorrow at the dealer. My research led me to a bad torque converter / stator. Also, does your car have a drag feel to it in 5th gear?? Both mine did too, a sign of a bad torque converter / stator!!

 

I seriously doubt your problem and the problem discussed in this thread are related. The issue here concerns the 3.5L/ AWD driveline. If you've read the entire thread then you know that the Ford FSE and my dealer tech have determined that the shudder is caused by the combination of the TCC locking and the rear differential disengaging at the same time. My torque converter was the first thing they replaced and it did not cure the problem.

 

While your issue may or may not be related to the torque converter, that theory has been ruled out for 3.5/AWD cars.

 

I am intrigued, however, that no one else on this forum with FWD has reported symptoms like yours. It's equally odd that you had the same issue with two different cars equipped with two different powertrain combinations.

[juice]

I seriously doubt your problem and the problem discussed in this thread are related. The issue here concerns the 3.5L/ AWD driveline. If you've read the entire thread then you know that the Ford FSE and my dealer tech have determined that the shudder is caused by the combination of the TCC locking and the rear differential disengaging at the same time. My torque converter was the first thing they replaced and it did not cure the problem.

 

While your issue may or may not be related to the torque converter, that theory has been ruled out for 3.5/AWD cars.

 

I am intrigued, however, that no one else on this forum with FWD has reported symptoms like yours. It's equally odd that you had the same issue with two different cars equipped with two different powertrain combinations.

 

I would have to say,too, that it is VERY ODD, to have the same problems with different powertrains, but I was intrigued that the 3.5 had the same problems as the others ( 2.5 & 3.0 ) that I had.

 

Maybe the issue isn't powertrain...... Maybe it's the car itself...........Maybe aerodynamics??? Maybe wheel bearings??

I'll find out as my car (3.0) is at the dealer now..... The service manager said they had some complaints of the same problem with ALL (2.5, 3.0, 3.5, fwd, awd ) but could not replicate the problem.