Aftermarket Remote Start on a FFH

[maroonhoo]

I've read that according to the manual, aftermarket remote starts are not recommended for the Fusion Hybrid. I'm looking at a used one, and the dealer is offering to split the cost of a remote start with me - $200 for me, $200 for them. It's not a bidirectional remote start, and the price seems way overpriced, especially since it's a third-party aftermarket remote start. Ford has some nice ones that control the a/c and heat, but the remote start they're offering doesn't.

 

But my question is this: has anyone installed a remote start not made by Ford? Have you had any starting problems or issues with the anti-theft system as the manual warns?

 

Is it a bad idea to install an aftermarket remote start when the manual cautions you not to if it is offered and installed by Ford?

 

Thanks in advance for the advice.

[dogo88]

I've read that according to the manual, aftermarket remote starts are not recommended for the Fusion Hybrid. I'm looking at a used one, and the dealer is offering to split the cost of a remote start with me - $200 for me, $200 for them. It's not a bidirectional remote start, and the price seems way overpriced, especially since it's a third-party aftermarket remote start. Ford has some nice ones that control the a/c and heat, but the remote start they're offering doesn't.

 

But my question is this: has anyone installed a remote start not made by Ford? Have you had any starting problems or issues with the anti-theft system as the manual warns?

 

Is it a bad idea to install an aftermarket remote start when the manual cautions you not to if it is offered and installed by Ford?

 

Thanks in advance for the advice.

 

 

I think you kind of know the answer based upon you're last statement:

 

"Is it a bad idea to install an aftermarket remote start when the manual cautions you not to if it is offered and installed by Ford?"

 

Aside from the cost which you feel in high, anything it screws up in the FFH will not be covered by Ford. And since they are the ones determining why something failed you could be double screwed.

 

Dan

[VonoreTn]

Here is a hint. You are trying to achieve Miles per gallon. When the engine is running, and you aren't going any miles, the MPG is Zero, by definition, which subtracts from your average mpg, and wastes gasoline. An engine warms up best when it is under load, not at idle. It warms up much quicker under load than sitting at idle. I have always thought the "luxury" of a remote start is overkill on perceived improvement of standard of living, but then I coming at it from an engineer's perspective. Maybe you live near the north pole and it makes sense to you.

[lolder]

Here is a hint. You are trying to achieve Miles per gallon. When the engine is running, and you aren't going any miles, the MPG is Zero, by definition, which subtracts from your average mpg, and wastes gasoline. An engine warms up best when it is under load, not at idle. It warms up much quicker under load than sitting at idle. I have always thought the "luxury" of a remote start is overkill on perceived improvement of standard of living, but then I coming at it from an engineer's perspective. Maybe you live near the north pole and it makes sense to you.

Truly a 'standard of living" thing. But for people in the BRRR areas, these types of cars are still the most efficient in improving your standard of living. They'll cool down or warm up and then shut of the ICE and use it only intermittently if your delayed. Don't use these remotes when the temperature is mild or to "warm up" the engine, just really uncomfortable temperatures. Many years ago up north, I had an hour commute. In really cold temperatures, it meant 15 minutes of freezing or else wearing a heavy coat for the whole trip. I luckily had an unheated attached garage and forced air heat in the house. I put a round duct outlet into the garage and used a dryer hose and fitted sheet of galvanized metal in the drivers window to heat the car. You could remove/insert it with one hand and it worked perfectly. The FFH lets you do that much more simply with the remote.

Edited March 19, 2010 by lolder

[maroonhoo]

Truly a 'standard of living" thing. But for people in the BRRR areas, these types of cars are still the most efficient in improving your standard of living. ... Many years ago up north, I had an hour commute. In really cold temperatures, it meant 15 minutes of freezing or else wearing a heavy coat for the whole trip. I luckily had an unheated attached garage and forced air heat in the house. I put a round duct outlet into the garage and used a dryer hose and fitted sheet of galvanized metal in the drivers window to heat the car. You could remove/insert it with one hand and it worked perfectly. The FFH lets you do that much more simply with the remote.

 

:D Inventive!

 

And you're right, when you live in the North (like Chicago where I'm from), remote starts are great. It gets crazy hot in the summer and freezing in the winter in Chicago, so letting the car warm up for a few minutes before I get into it would make those initial minutes in the car on a really, really cold day or on a really, really hot day a little more comfortable.

[komondor]

I would be most concerned with how it was able to start the car without a coded key? From what I have read some systems use an actual key locked in a box?

Also if the dealer is doing it they are marking it up big time and they are the only one providing a warranty. If you go to a national chain at least they will cover it wherever they go? As for heat settings, I used to have a Diesel pickup and I just set the defrosters on with the heat on high when I turned the truck off at night. In the summer I would set the AC on high.

 

I don't really think the Hybrid has a different remote start that a conventional one?

 

Looks like for system is 238.00?

 

http://www.partscheap.com/2010_Ford_Fusion_Remote_Start_Systems_p/8l3z-19g365-ba-f10.htm

[maroonhoo]

I would be most concerned with how it was able to start the car without a coded key? From what I have read some systems use an actual key locked in a box?

Also if the dealer is doing it they are marking it up big time and they are the only one providing a warranty. If you go to a national chain at least they will cover it wherever they go? As for heat settings, I used to have a Diesel pickup and I just set the defrosters on with the heat on high when I turned the truck off at night. In the summer I would set the AC on high.

 

I don't really think the Hybrid has a different remote start that a conventional one?

 

Looks like for system is 238.00?

 

http://www.partscheap.com/2010_Ford_Fusion_Remote_Start_Systems_p/8l3z-19g365-ba-f10.htm

 

Komondor, you raise some good points. According to the dealer, I'll have to purchase an extra key so that they can put it inside the car someplace. I don't know the specifics, but you do need to buy and give up a key.

 

I know the dealer is marking it up big time (when don't they!), which is why I'm reluctant to do it. They're outsourcing it to a third party to do the installation in their shop, so it's obviously cheaper for me to go to the third party myself to get it done. The only reason I haven't up and decided to do that is because the manual says that aftermarket systems shouldn't be used. If Ford does it, doesn't that make the system used at least Ford approved? If a third party does it, I'm sure that if there are any electrical problems or issues with the security system at any point in the future, regardless of whether it can be linked to the third-party remote start, the first thing Ford would say is that it's my fault and the damage is not covered under warranty because I got a remote start installed by a third party.

 

I don't think the hybrid has a different remote start than the conventional one, although the sales person I'm dealing with keeps insisting that it does. It doesn't, at least not according to Ford's accessories website. It also doesn't make sense that it would.

 

The bidirectional system is about $285 in my area, not including installation. I'm still waiting to find out from the dealer which model they're offering to install for $400 (for which they'll split the cost with me 50/50). They're completely clueless about it -- they don't know which model they're offering to install, whether it's bidirectional or one way, or even what bidirectional means. They outsource this so they don't know anything about remote starts. Once I find out the brand and model, I'll comparison shop. For the same money, I know that I can get a remote start with more features (such as turning on the a/c, heat, and rear defrost). I'm just concerned about voiding the warranty.

[Oman]

There is an interesting twist here. First off warming your engine up before use does use gasoline and reduce your overall mileage no matter if it is a hybrid or not. But... When you are warming up a hybrid (at least the FFH) it runs the ICE under load by using the generator to charge the HVB. Therefore at least until the battery is fully charged some percentage of that energy is being stored for use as motive power. That is less inefficient than a standard car warming up and wasting 100% of the energy.

 

Jon

 

 

 

Here is a hint. You are trying to achieve Miles per gallon. When the engine is running, and you aren't going any miles, the MPG is Zero, by definition, which subtracts from your average mpg, and wastes gasoline. An engine warms up best when it is under load, not at idle. It warms up much quicker under load than sitting at idle. I have always thought the "luxury" of a remote start is overkill on perceived improvement of standard of living, but then I coming at it from an engineer's perspective. Maybe you live near the north pole and it makes sense to you.

[maroonhoo]

There is an interesting twist here. First off warming your engine up before use does use gasoline and reduce your overall mileage no matter if it is a hybrid or not. But... When you are warming up a hybrid (at least the FFH) it runs the ICE under load by using the generator to charge the HVB. Therefore at least until the battery is fully charged some percentage of that energy is being stored for use as motive power. That is less inefficient than a standard car warming up and wasting 100% of the energy.

 

Jon

 

Great point. Where'd you learn this?

[lolder]

Great point. Where'd you learn this?

You can see it on the dash gauges; for instance the green top (charge) and bottom (discharge) green arrows in the HVB display. When you're driving with a warmed up car at say a steady 30 mph with the ICE on, the instantaneous mpg shows about 30 mpg. That is about 1/2 the mpg that the car gets at this speed. The HVB charging is the difference. when the ICE stops and you begin EV mode the Inst. mpg goes to 60+ (or 99.9 in the computer). Go to: http://www.wind.sannet.ne.jp/m_matsu/prius/ThsSimu/index_i18n.html?Language=en?Country=US for a Prius driving simulator. Under Download, click on ThsSimulator.jar. Click the Driving mode box and select D Range. Move the accelerator slider up about 1/8 till speed reaches about 20 mph. Watch what happens over 10 to 15 minutes. The FFH operates the same.

[maroonhoo]

You can see it on the dash gauges; for instance the green top (charge) and bottom (discharge) green arrows in the HVB display. When you're driving with a warmed up car at say a steady 30 mph with the ICE on, the instantaneous mpg shows about 30 mpg. That is about 1/2 the mpg that the car gets at this speed. The HVB charging is the difference. when the ICE stops and you begin EV mode the Inst. mpg goes to 60+ (or 99.9 in the computer). Go to: http://www.wind.sannet.ne.jp/m_matsu/prius/ThsSimu/index_i18n.html?Language=en?Country=US for a Prius driving simulator. Under Download, click on ThsSimulator.jar. Click the Driving mode box and select D Range. Move the accelerator slider up about 1/8 till speed reaches about 20 mph. Watch what happens over 10 to 15 minutes. The FFH operates the same.

 

That's pretty cool. I'll have to try out the simulator, especially since I don't pick up my car until next Saturday.

 

And for the benefit of anyone looking at this thread wondering whether it's a bad idea to install a non-Ford but "Ford approved" part such as a remote start -- don't. According to Ford's warranty, any damage caused by the third party part will not be covered by warranty. And best believe that any problems experienced regarding the starter or Securilock will be attributed to the non-Ford part.

 

Here's what the warranty states:

 

Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification

The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage caused by:

• alterations or modifications of the vehicle, including the body, chassis,

or components, after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor

Company

• tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or

with the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not

limited to exhaust and intake systems)

• the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part (other than

a certified emissions part) or any part (Ford or non-Ford) designed

for off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of

Ford Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part

to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized

tires, roll bars, cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting

systems and performance-enhancing powertrain components or

software and performance ‘‘chips’’

 

The warranty info can be found here: http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/content/~WOAFHY/~MUS~LEN/41/10frdwa4e.pdf

 

I'm going to play it safe and insist that the dealer order and install Ford's Bidirectional 100 Series for FF or nothing at all and call it a day.

 

Everybody, thanks for weighing in.

[lolder]

The Prius simulator is not perfect and the numbers would be different for the FFH. Set the accelerator so the speed is 25 mph, the max for EV mode in this generation Prius (I think it's a gen. I). When the ICE stops, you'll see the generator (MG1) rpm at 4000, the max for that MG1. That max MG1 rpm defines the max EV mode speed in all these type hybrids, including the FFH's 47 mph.

Edited March 20, 2010 by lolder

[maroonhoo]

The Prius simulator is not perfect and the numbers would be different for the FFH. Set the accelerator so the speed is 25 mph, the max for EV mode in this generation Prius (I think it's a gen. I). When the ICE stops, you'll see the generator (MG1) rpm at 4000, the max for that MG1. That max MG1 rpm defines the max EV mode speed in all these type hybrids, including the FFH's 47 mph.

 

Thanks for the explanation. It took a second reading to understand what all this jargon means, but I think I get it. I will certainly refer back to your posts when I download the Prius simulator.

[Oman]

The simulator doesn't simulate the warm-up behavior, only the driving behavior. It also doesn't properly simulate the FFH in HVB high charge mode vs. low charge mode. It pretty much simulates the ICE/MG1/MG2 interactions as a generality. If you switch to engage display mode you can see when starting the FFH from cold that the engine RPM is higher than it would normally be. You can also see a dark up-arrow on top of the battery level indicator that shows that the HVB is charging. If the HVB reaches max charge then the ICE will slow and the charge indicator will go away. As the ICE warms the computer will slow the RPM down and the charge rate will slow.

 

The software tries to keep the battery charge at around 50%. This allows the computer to draw charge when needed and to have capacity for regenerative braking. Once you have warmed the engine some and the HVB has more than 50% charge the computer will use maximum electric boost to aid the ICE until the charge reaches 50%. Then it will use a less aggressive boost to keep things at the 50%. Of course if the conditions are right for full EV mode then the system will allow a deeper discharge of the HVB to maximize mileage. This is how it tries to minimize the warm-up loss. Since the car uses an electric air conditioning compressor it will use the HVB for this purpose until the charge drops below a certain point at which time it will run the ICE to keep the HVB from dropping too low.

 

The ICE will always run for a short period of time when the car is first started (or put into gear). It will then run the ICE to maintain either an appropriate engine and emissions temperature, a temperature appropriate for the current heat/defrost mode, or when needed to maintain the HVB charge. There is an electric vacuum booster so that the ICE does not have to run to maintain vacuum.

 

Jon

 

 

Great point. Where'd you learn this?

[lolder]

I'm not sure I understand why the ICE runs 1/2 minute or more before shutting down on cold starts in moderate temperatures with no heating demands when "D" or "R" is selected. I don't think that's long enough to heat the catalyst. I seem to remember something about an evaporative emmisions system check.

[VonoreTn]

Truly a 'standard of living" thing. But for people in the BRRR areas, these types of cars are still the most efficient in improving your standard of living. They'll cool down or warm up and then shut of the ICE and use it only intermittently if your delayed. Don't use these remotes when the temperature is mild or to "warm up" the engine, just really uncomfortable temperatures. Many years ago up north, I had an hour commute. In really cold temperatures, it meant 15 minutes of freezing or else wearing a heavy coat for the whole trip. I luckily had an unheated attached garage and forced air heat in the house. I put a round duct outlet into the garage and used a dryer hose and fitted sheet of galvanized metal in the drivers window to heat the car. You could remove/insert it with one hand and it worked perfectly. The FFH lets you do that much more simply with the remote.

 

That is truly clever, I respect you for your ingenuity. I lived in Michigan for 33 years and drove about 25 different vehicles to work in that time period, and the only time I didn't have heat in 3 minutes on the expressway or 5 in traffic, was if I had a bad thermostat. They were all Ford products. But I never started out cold in heavy traffic, maybe that is your experience which would take longer.

 

Giving up some mpg for some early heat sounds reasonable as you describe. You might also consider a block heater which are dealer installed on a regular basis in Canada, they preheat the engine coolant, with no detriment to mpg. You will have warm air coming out of the heater as soon as you back out of your garage.

 

Once installed, Just plug in a connector near the grill, and into the wall 110V once installed. Not only will you be warmer sooner, your catalytic converter will light off quicker, lowering your emission levels as well. You can run it on a timer if it only takes about an hour to heat the coolant, for instance.

 

I read somewhere that they are standard equipment on new Ford Fusions sold in AK, MN, ND, SD, MT, WI & WY.