My FFH, a large paperweight. Please help!

[ralteredstates]

Hope someone can help. First, the joke for the day. My car is at the dealer because it is dead and the service dept called today and asked me "what is the black box under the hood. It looks professionally installed but we don't know what it is" They are asking me??? It's part of the car. I have not installed anything under the hood (unlike all my other cars) because it's a hybrid and I don't mess with it. Now for the problem. About 2 months ago, the car would suddenly start flashing every error alarm (I mean every one including engine, low fuel, electrical, ABS, brakes, etc) and all the alarm sounds that go with them. The ICE would still work (it felt underpowered) but the hybrid system was shut down. I would shut off the car, open the door/shut it, wait 30 seconds and then restart. Everything would be back to normal. This happened 2X in a couple of weeks. The third time, the car completely shut down after backing up in my driveway and would not "reset". It had to be towed to the dealer. All they did at that time was reflash the cars computer system. It seemed to be fine for a couple of weeks until... 2 weeks ago, it happened again. I was able to reset it with a complete shutdown and restart. Again 1 week ago. Then, the other night, it started about 8 miles from home on a busy road. I drove on ICE for about 1/4 mile until I got to a light that I was going to take a left (it was red) and when the car was stopped, I stupidly shut it off and tried to restart. You know what happened. I had to call the police because I was blocking a very busy turn lane at the intersection and had the car towed again. Today, when the asked about the black box, he said that he thinks he knows the problem. He said the under hood battery was dead. I find it hard to believe that is the problem since I had driven 8 miles from my house before the car acted up. All my lights worked including everything electrical in the cabin. The ICE/hybrid system just would not start. The tow company said they started the car later that night. Please help. My dealer is nice but clueless. I have about 23,000 miles on it. I used to love her, but I had to kill her. HELP!

[dennisw]

Sounds to me like a bad battery or bad battery connection.

[CometFlash]

I recall hearing that some buyers of new FFH's were asked by Ford after purchase of a new hybrid if they wanted to be part of some stat tracking program for the hybrid, and if the owner agreed, they brought her in to have a black box installed that would send Ford periodic info about the hybrid. Perhaps that is what the black box is? (Did you buy her pre-owned or brand-new?)

[ralteredstates]

I recall hearing that some buyers of new FFH's were asked by Ford after purchase of a new hybrid if they wanted to be part of some stat tracking program for the hybrid, and if the owner agreed, they brought her in to have a black box installed that would send Ford periodic info about the hybrid. Perhaps that is what the black box is? (Did you buy her pre-owned or brand-new?)

brand-spankin-new. 12 miles on her

[ralteredstates]

Sounds to me like a bad battery or bad battery connection.

Please explain. I don't understand how the small front battery could cause these symptoms. Last time it happened (2 days ago at night) I was driving at 40 MPH when the display went crazy with warning lights and the sounds that starts Pink Floyd's "Money" emanated from the dash(radio off of course). The hybrid system shut down but the ICE continued until I stopped the car and tried to reset with a power-off/power-on. I believe there is a battery warning light but that would have been one of a dozen(?) lights that came on.

Edited December 8, 2011 by ralteredstates

[FusionDiffusion]

These cars really don't like it when the 12V battery is low. All the electronics run off the 12v battery, so if it's low, the computers freak out and all the lights come on. I've seen it before where the whole car wants to shut down. If the car has been sitting on the lot for some time (it's a 2010!), the 12v battery is probably low or dead from sitting too long. Charge it up and I think it will be fine. The service department obviously has no idea what a hybrid even is, so just tell them to charge the 12v battery. Better yet, you can just go to the store and buy a 12v automatic battery maintainer. Put it on overnight and your car should be great the next morning.

 

If you want to test the battery, it should put out 12.6 volts or more with the car off. Yours is probably less than 12 volts because it's been sitting for several years. If it won't hold a charge, you might have to replace the battery even though it's a new car.

[VonoreTn]

I just tested my battery with a $20 Harbor Freight 100 amp battery load tester. It reads 12.8 v with no load, and 11.2 volts with 100 amp load. From my experience on other cars, that's a good enough reading. When the voltage drops into the mid 10 v range at 100 amps, I start shopping for a new battery. 100 amps is a large load, roughly as much as the starter pulls, except in very cold weather after an overnight cold soak. The vehicle now has 46000 miles on it and we are headed for the Colorado mountains Friday, 1500 miles away. They have good snow for skiing now.

[ralteredstates]

These cars really don't like it when the 12V battery is low. All the electronics run off the 12v battery, so if it's low, the computers freak out and all the lights come on. I've seen it before where the whole car wants to shut down. If the car has been sitting on the lot for some time (it's a 2010!), the 12v battery is probably low or dead from sitting too long. Charge it up and I think it will be fine. The service department obviously has no idea what a hybrid even is, so just tell them to charge the 12v battery. Better yet, you can just go to the store and buy a 12v automatic battery maintainer. Put it on overnight and your car should be great the next morning.

 

If you want to test the battery, it should put out 12.6 volts or more with the car off. Yours is probably less than 12 volts because it's been sitting for several years. If it won't hold a charge, you might have to replace the battery even though it's a new car.

Purchased the car in July 2009. Never sat on the lot. If the battery is the problem, why a 2 week period between issues? Why does it happen after the car has been driven at least 5+ minutes and moving (except the time in my driveway)? I would think If the battery is the problem, there must be a charging issue that is intermittent. That may allow the battery to die while moving. If that's the case, then it's not the batteries fault but the charging system. Also, if the battery is dead, then why does everything electrical (except the drive system) work, including the headlights, all in-cabin electrics etc. I'm confused and concerned that this may happen in a dangerous situation.

[lolder]

The dealer SHOULD be able to sort it out. It SHOULD have thrown some DTCs. If the dealer changes the 12 v battery, give it one chance. If it happens again, throw everything at the dealer and go higher up as the manuals describe. The FFH computers apparently analyze the 12 v battery continuously much more so than other cars. If they detect a problem, you get the Pull Over warning. In conventional cars, once the car was running, if the battery had a problem, the alternator would usually keep the car running until you shut it off. Not so with the FFH. Don't have them charge the 12v., have them change it. The 12 v battery does not crank the ICE in the FFH.

Edited December 8, 2011 by lolder

[dennisw]

Check the battery connections and the battery ground connection. This could be the problem and the reason for the problem happening at differing times. Batteries do strange things sometimes they have internal connections that can be affected by heat vibrations and things of that nature. I would be surprised if your problems are not battery related. Just for an example three days ago I had a good battery that was sitting in my gargage blow up just sitting there under no load it just went boom. Lucky for me the end that blew off was facing the wall and not my FFH, I did have a piece of one of the caps sitting on the windshield. It gives me new respect for batteries, I thought a gun went off in the garage, just glad I was not in there at the time.

[ralteredstates]

Check the battery connections and the battery ground connection. This could be the problem and the reason for the problem happening at differing times. Batteries do strange things sometimes they have internal connections that can be affected by heat vibrations and things of that nature. I would be surprised if your problems are not battery related. Just for an example three days ago I had a good battery that was sitting in my gargage blow up just sitting there under no load it just went boom. Lucky for me the end that blew off was facing the wall and not my FFH, I did have a piece of one of the caps sitting on the windshield. It gives me new respect for batteries, I thought a gun went off in the garage, just glad I was not in there at the time.

That is scary. Glad you're O.K. Batteries shouldn't do that. There must have been something seriously wrong with it to make it blow up. No sparks near it?

[ralteredstates]

The dealer SHOULD be able to sort it out. It SHOULD have thrown some DTCs. If the dealer changes the 12 v battery, give it one chance. If it happens again, throw everything at the dealer and go higher up as the manuals describe. The FFH computers apparently analyze the 12 v battery continuously much more so than other cars. If they detect a problem, you get the Pull Over warning. In conventional cars, once the car was running, if the battery had a problem, the alternator would usually keep the car running until you shut it off. Not so with the FFH. Don't have them charge the 12v., have them change it. The 12 v battery does not crank the ICE in the FFH.

Thanks. I'm going to give them one more chance with this. Ford Customer Service (whom I called for the tow) wanted to know if I wanted to go to another dealer. Strange. I haven't asked if they just charged it or replaced it. If they just charged it, I will replace it myself because they will probably put one of their crappy batteries in it and charge $$$.

[lolder]

Thanks. I'm going to give them one more chance with this. Ford Customer Service (whom I called for the tow) wanted to know if I wanted to go to another dealer. Strange. I haven't asked if they just charged it or replaced it. If they just charged it, I will replace it myself because they will probably put one of their crappy batteries in it and charge $$$.

The 12 v. battery in the FFH is not a standard battery. It is more of a deep cycle battery like is used in RVs. If you don't replace it with a MotorCraft battery, make sure it's the same type and not just one that fits. I replaced mine after about two years of service with another MotorCraft before I went on a long trip. The Green ball had been reluctant to show in the sight gauge for some time even though the cell gravities were OK. You need to remove one end of the plastic intake duct to properly get to the tie down bolt. It wasn't too hard to do.

[VonoreTn]

........................................... The 12 v battery does not crank the ICE in the FFH.

 

You are probably right because you know the FFH technology better than I do, but if you are right, why does the FFH Owners Manual give you instructions for charging and starting the car using conventional car to car jumping procedure to the engine 12v battery? Page 251.

 

Why wouldn't Ford allow you to start the ICE, with the 275 volts behind the rear seat then tell you not to drive for 5 minutes while the 12 v battery is charging? That would seem like a good emergency backup strategy, versus jumper cables and a second car.

 

Also, why do they give you a 12 v battery rated at;

• 
   
  
• 390 cold cranking amps (32F).
  
• 65 RC (65 minutes at 25 amp drain to drop to 10.5 v without charging, )
  
• 43 AH (43 amps for 1 hour, 21.5 amps for 2 hours, etc.)
  

 

It am guessing that the 12 volt battery max drain is less then 25 amps without a starter function load, so a good battery should keep you going for 65 minutes without charging. Plus even a bad battery will hold 12 volts while being charged, which should work for you a long time while you shop for a new battery, assuming you get a warning message based on engine off 12 v battery voltage sampling. But a problem might be that without the high current conventional starter test, you could be driving with a weak battery for a long time and not know it. Hence the battery window color test is very important if that is the case.

 

Info: My 2.5 year old FFH battery is showing green in its window. (I didn't even know I had this window before I started following this thread, thanks!)

Edited December 8, 2011 by VonoreTn

[lolder]

The 12 vdc operates the computers and the relay that enable the HVB to start ICE. It's highest load is probably only several 10s of amps with headlights, defrosters, blowers and heated seats on. An average deep cycle battery will still have a lot of cranking amps available. I think the FFH might look at the internal impedance of the 12 vdc battery while charging it with the DC to DC converter and flag any anomalies. It's hard to find out about this stuff because the manufacturers don't often talk about this stuff. All they preach is it's got a billion horsepower and gets a jillion miles per gallon on 3.14 cylinders.

I think the "jumping" procedure is standard. You only need to get the voltage up enough and have enough current ( from the jumping battery ) to close the HVB contacts and then the ICE will start and the DC to DC charging will start. You can probably disconnect everything right away if the 12 vdc has not been damaged. I left the car "on" in "N" one night and it ran the 12 vdc deader than a doornail. The HVB shutoff below the "L" HVB gauge mark. My 6 amp charger hadn't gotten the voltage up enough even after 15 minutes so I had to jump from another battery. It started immediately and I disconnected. I left the car "on" for about an hour and it was OK.

[dennisw]

That is scary. Glad you're O.K. Batteries shouldn't do that. There must have been something seriously wrong with it to make it blow up. No sparks near it?

 

Thanks for the concern, there was nothing that could spark next to the battery. It was sitting on my bench next to another battery that was on a battery tender. The battery has been sitting here for a year or more and I charge it on and off to keep it up. The temps were in the teens and the other battery sitting next to the one that blew up was on trickle charge with the charger no where near either battery. I have never heard of such a thing and I have been a mechanic for more than 40 years. My best guess is the cold weather caused something inside to shrink enough to come loose and then cause an internal spark and subsequent explosion. This batter was almost ten years old and had never been drained dead.

 

Everyone is still stuck on a bad battery for this guys problem and it could be but it also sounds very much like a bad connection to the chassis ground.

[ralteredstates]

Picked up the car today. They put 80 miles on it after replacing the battery and hopefully checking the grounding connections (they said they did). Of course, it will take a few weeks before I will feel comfortable with the fix if in fact it is fixed. Sold the Saab today... hope it wasn't too soon.

At least they didn't charge for the new battery. I expected at least a prorated charge since it's been 2 years and 23,000 miles. Nada. Thanks all for the advise. The dealer came to the same conclusion. Too bad they didn't figure this out the first time.

[drolds1]

 

At least they didn't charge for the new battery. I expected at least a prorated charge since it's been 2 years and 23,000 miles. Nada. Thanks all for the advise. The dealer came to the same conclusion. Too bad they didn't figure this out the first time.

 

The battery is covered under your 3/36 B2B warranty. There's no charge for replacement in that time frame.

[Fuze-ion]

I hope the Battery fixes your problem. My Battery stays with the Cell Red. I have had to jump my car twice, in the past year, but I have not had any warnings or alarms ever go-off. I just get in the car and turn the key and nothing will happen. I took the car to the Dealer once and had them check the Battery and they told me it was "OK". I know the Batteries are very low on cranking amps, because the car doesn't need it, but sometimes it is good to have extra. The car should be able, to not be driven for a week and still function properly.

[ralteredstates]

I hope the Battery fixes your problem. My Battery stays with the Cell Red. I have had to jump my car twice, in the past year, but I have not had any warnings or alarms ever go-off. I just get in the car and turn the key and nothing will happen. I took the car to the Dealer once and had them check the Battery and they told me it was "OK". I know the Batteries are very low on cranking amps, because the car doesn't need it, but sometimes it is good to have extra. The car should be able, to not be driven for a week and still function properly.

Thanks; At least you will hopefully know what the problem is if my car's symptoms show up in yours. I will repost in one month if everything is OK , or sooner if the car acts up again. They still don't know what the black box is under my hood!

[dennisw]

Where is this black box located? Is it at the ront of the engine compartment near the radiator?

[ralteredstates]

Where is this black box located? Is it at the ront of the engine compartment near the radiator?

I forgot to ask when I picked the car up but the tech said they were going to ask their installer when he came in. I am also curious. It's not part of the engine block heater if that's what you're thinking. I had the parts and there was no "black box" like they described and they installed it because I could not find anything on line about how to route the wire and if it went into a freeze plug or elsewhere. I'm sure it was a very easy install because they only charged me $100.00 and this dealer doesn't look at the car for less. My regular mechanic was also unable to get info about the install of the heater . Ford doesn't give out info.

[lolder]

I have two black boxes. They are both fuse boxes.

[ralteredstates]

I have two black boxes. They are both fuse boxes.

I HOPE the service department knows what/where the fuse boxes are. They would just have to open them if they weren't sure.

[FusionDiffusion]

If you're still mystified, you maybe you could post a picture of your engine bay. Then we'll know if the FBI put a GPS tracking device in your car! :eek5: